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Re: wishes (Re: gac experiment)



On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 07:50:05AM +0100, Thomas Kuiper wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jochen Kaiser wrote:
> 
> > You just think about your moral integrity and are to involved in
> > former ideas of irc: opers and users should be equal, and opers
> > should only be operating servers. this did work for some time.
> > But we are in the days of TFN and kids who have control over
> > vast flood potential. 
> 
> And you really think a gac patched server whould help it?
> Or connecting a script as server to collide them? No, you played
> with them, and thats all they want. News pages about "war crews"
> get only setup and show your nick because you acted - in the wrong way.
I didn't say that gac is the right way. But it is the first thing
that really does something against it.  Introduce another way and
we will compare it. But theory about it doesn't help us here.

You say I acted in the wrong way. Why are there so many opers
out there. If operflag is only about fixing server problems and
granting stability - there wouldn't be so much out there. 

You are accusing me of acting? Compare your killrate to mine and
you will loose! Don't blame me of just abusing the the holy
IRC-Protocol by using a collide script. You are abusing your kill
command (which surely only was made to remove dead clients out
of irc rather then removing troublemakers).

> 
> > But things have changed. Often when I leave IRC I am frustrated.
> 
> bored?

Any context or just flaming?
> 
> > It's not any more to provide a service to the people. It's about
> > listening to frustrated users, watching server statistics if
> > we are under DOS-attack ... the chats between opers are about
> > DOS and kids.
> 
> would you like more social chat between the opers? :)

No I'd rather like you and other people hanging around in #opers
stop blubbering whole day and concentrate on administrative
chat in that channel. You have #eu-opers for that.

What I do mean what happened: s/technical topics/abuse topics/
And that's annoying.
> 
> > > this one i still don't understand.
> > > * many tell me that i wasted my time on !channels, and that
> > >   they're a big faillure.  (i wonder about it myself)
> > 
> > it's simple: kids don't like the !-symbol (it's true ...)
> 
> yeah, lets exchange the prefix from # to ! and from ! to #,
> I'm sure they'll like it more. Do you like to tell me its
> only about a simple character? NO, its only about that they

The !-Symbol hasn't been introduced correctly. The users who
know about it are interersted in it. The only thing is, that it's
not the default channel type if you open a new channel and that
it's not known to most of them.

You only can introduce such a concept if you make it the default
channeltype in mirc and if you force the users to migrate.
Other clients will comply if we act. I am pretty sure about it.
People won't leave IRC just for a technical problem with their
chatproggie. They want to meet their friends again and will
download new version of mirc. 

The ircd-developpers have to do their part of the job and we have
to do ours in helping users to use this possibility once it is
implemented in a meaningful way.

> are used to #channels, and they should keep using them if
> they want. Like I said in a previous mail, most users don't
> have problems with a takeover. Sure its annoying. It always was,

Wake up. Most users do. More users are using scripts for that. 
Usage of scripts is a good indicator for that in my eyes.

> but moving to #channel2 helped always more than attacking the
> abusers which even causes more abuse by them.

Don't come the moral way and do explain me how irc works. You are
just a half a year oper and think you are syrk ... :)

You are no angel neither. When you want to talk to me this way 
remove your O-lines on servers and just be a coder. 

We just got a formal complaint from a user accusing operator engerim
of doing vanity kills on foreign servers two days ago. 
So don't come the moral way.
Not you !!!

> 
> > 
> > >   + you can't drop things which are so standard.. (s/can't/shouln't/ ?)
> > you can. just make #-channels modeless by default. users will
> > happily migrate to !-channels.
> 
> bleh, why break it?

*You* said they are broken in another Mail to syrk.
Are you just answering mails for fun?


> 
> > > [i'm also ignoring the technical problems if you intend to
> > > have all servers react on all kills.]
> > 
> > then we need faster links and servers. if we want to provide a
> > quality product, we need quality ressources.
> 
> actually I know people who did set up whole backbones for better
> connectivity for IRC. It could be more worse...

What's your point?
> 
> > > @ or * ?
> > > it my strong feeling that all should be as equal as possible.
> > 
> > nice thought. failed in all day irc-life. kids nowadays
> > are even stronger then a bunch of opers. 
> > So don't talk about equality. They are playing with us, even if
> > we are nice and have moral integrity - and -
> > they just begun.
> 
> wake up! why they play with you? it always takes two to play.
> It's a diffrent thing fighting abusers and hunting abusers.
> If you fight them, they just fight back, if you hunt them down,
> they probably loose the fun. But right now you play there game
> very nice - for them.

it's you to wake up. it will get worse. It's the system they attack.
We just can improve things if we change the system to such defaults
that colliding, TO and DOSing isn't funny any more.

Sure, abusing debug servers isn't the right way. But if a channel
like #flirt.de with roughly 400 users is opless and we are just
showing the users that we are too comfortable to act we cannot
call us "operators" nor "administrators" of a system like that.


-Jochen

-- 
Jochen Kaiser          		                   phone +49 9131 85-28134
Network Administration           mailto:jochen.kaiser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Regionales Rechenzentrum Universitaet Erlangen-Nuernberg, Germany